the case that you can use lethal force against an unarmed individual in many states and be viewed as acting in self defense, but it's difficult. you usually have more of a showing from the beating than what we see here. >> jonathan turley of george washington university, "countdown" contributor, thank you for staying with us on this. >> that's "countdown," i'm keith olbermann, good night. >> tonight we explore the fate of president obama's health care law, the future of health care now lies in the hands of the nation's nine supreme court justice. and then, my exclusive interview with deval patrick. his state has universal health

care, ins statuted by his predecessor, mitt romney. this is the war room. come on inside. >> we begin with breaking news in the trayvon martin vase george zimmerman said the unarmed 17-year-old attacked him, but this just released video calls his credibility into question. he said he broke his nose and slammed his head into the ground. zimmerman's face and head certainly do not show any blood or bruises. the video seems to contradict an initial police report saying he was bleeding from the neck and nose. zimmerman hasn't been charged with any crime but we now know that the lead homicide

investigator recommended he be charged with manslaughter. zimmerman insoaked florida's stand your ground law. for reaction to the trayvon case we're joined from chicago by gary indiana mare, guarantee man-wilson. she served as the attorney general of indiana a state that has a stand your ground law. welcome into the war room, mayor. >> thank you governor. >> so glad to have you here. i wanted to get to the stand your ground issues, but i know you have seen the video of george zimmerman taken into custody or at least in the sanford police department. what's your reaction. >> i to have tell you that i'm not at all surprised after hearing the audio of the last moments of trayvon's life, i did not expect to see any injuries

on george zimmerman and that video simply bears that out. i think it impeaches his story and as the old adage goes, a picture speaks a thousand words. >> for sure. for sure. we were both attorneys general. if i saw that video and had the testimony of the homicide detective who recommended that he be charged with manslaughter, i just do not understand to this moment why george zimmerman is not arrested. >> i have to join that. and the prosecution of zimmerman would have to be a key piece of evidence. >> there is no doubt about that. now, you are, and one of the reasons we asked you to come on tonight was to talk about the fact that you are part of a group of mayors who have formed to suggest changes to illegal --

to gun laws nationally perhaps and i just am curious from your perspective, you are the mayor of gary, indiana and a new mayor, and there was a huge great swell of excitement when you were elected because you are a hometown girl, born and raised in gary, and then went off to harvard law school and harvard university and came back as the hometown girl does good. you ended up being elected mayor and just took office. you have seen from your perspective as the mayor what homicide rates in gary indiana have been. is that the reason you joined this group? >> absolutely. i understand what illegal guns on the street can do and have done to devastate a community and certainly i was very quick to join the mayors against illegal guns, because if we are going to curb crime in our communities, if we are going to

address the violence in our communities, we've got to get the guns off of the street. >> now you were attorney emof indiana and indiana is one of the stand your ground law states. when you were attorney general do you -- what was the thought of prosecutors and police departments across the state with respect to that law? >> well, i think that certainly in indiana no prosecutor, no law enforcement officer wants any citizen a well-meaning citizen to ever be in peril for their lives after being threatened. the issue here however is that it has to be a real threat. it has to be a reasonable threat, and it has to be an imminent threat. i don't think that that is at all the case in trayvon martin's case. if you listen to the audio if you look at the video of

zimmerman, it is clear that there is no eminent threat of harm, that no reasonable person in george zimmerman's position particularly when the police officers tell you not to pursue an individual, you can't pursue someone and then say you're in fear for your life. >> you raised the last moments of trayvon's life and it's hard to talk about that because we all know what we were listening to and clearly that will have to be a key piece of evidence. the point in the stand your ground laws is that you can claim this defense no matter where you are, whether you're in a house or whether you are out in the street. that, to me, is a significant difference between the castle doctrine laws which are in some states, which allow you to protect your home, but the idea of taking this defense out into the street, does that not hamper

law enforcement in their ability to bring cases? >> absolutely. it creates an extra barrier for prosecutors, for law enforcement officers to bring these cases and it does give a lot of latitude for those who would act illegally and use these grounds -- use these laws for cover, and that is why, you know, i think that we would all be better served if there were some type of federal regulation of these laws and the states. i know that, you know, there are a lot of folks who would cry and promote state's rights, but when you see these types of tragedies and trayvon martin i suspect is just the latest victim of this type of law but when you see these tragedies result in the loss of life, it really does send a message that there has to be some regulation of these stand your ground laws. >> i think it would be difficult to get federal law on curbing

gun possession across the board. i would imagine just from a political point of view, it would be very difficult to get through congress, because certain states have a history and a tradition and rural states of gun possession, but it's the urban areas most challenged. is there a way to carve a federal law that you guys might be recommending that cuts it with a scalpel and not with an ax, if you will? >> absolutely, and that's what i hope to sit with the u.s. conference of mayors to do, because there really is a double-edged sword to these types of issues for us. there is the vigilante justice that we saw in trayvon martin's case and then there is the urban violence that we see every day that leads to crime statistics in cities like gary, like philadelphia, like washington, d.c. that we have to address in our communities and we do it in

a variety of ways with community policing, with the enforcement of laws, through the enactment of truancy courts, but at the end of the day we need laws that will allow us to regulate the use of guns, the availability of guns particularly those guns that are used against police, that are used against other young men where we have black on black violence in our cities, and others across the country. >> so a lot of communities especially because of the recession have felt the pinch of budget cuts and some communities have decided that they and this is admirable that they are forming neighborhood watches or they are sort of themselves doing what they feel the police can't because of cutbacks in law enforcement, those neighborhood groups, i think while they should be applauded and certainly george zimmerman was

an unofficial watchman like that, would we think that civilians are an adequate substitute for community policing or professionals on the ground? >> absolutely not. we have to be very careful. there is a vast difference between neighborhood watch where neighbors look out for each other, where they call the police when they see suspicious activity, where they alert their neighbors to concerns that they have on their property. at the end of every neighborhood watch action is a call to the police, is a response to the police. it is not an effort or an action to take the law into your own hands. >> mayor free man-wilson, thank you for joining us inside the war room. that's gary, indiana mayor free man-wilson.

>> we check in with massachusetts governor deval patrick so find out how romney care is working in his state. >> justice kennedy could be the swing vote. we'll talk with someone who knows firsthand how justice can be waived with competing sides.

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>> health care continues to be a hot topic in the courtroom and on the campaign trail. for mitt romney, it's an issue that has made its way to the late night circuit. >> if they're 45 years old and show up and say i want health insurance because i've got heart disease, you've got to get insurance when you're well and then as you get ill then you're going to be covered. >> did you catch that? that was governor romney telling jay leno if you have a preexisting condition and you aren't already insured and you have to go to the hospital because you're sick, well, you are on your own baby. that is the america that is he is spoused by the latest version of mitt romney, where his wiring was reprogrammed a couple of years ago by the tea party and the right wing. this new mitt romney is fine with striking down provisions of obamacare, provisions that

mirrors the very law that he crafted in massachusetts. the ban on denying people coverage for preexisting conditions is obviously one of the most popular aspects of the national health care reform law the law which was the subject of today's historic argument before the united states supreme court. joining us to discuss the old romney and the new romney and how his health care plan has worked out in the laboratory of democracy that is massachusetts the governor deval patrick seeing firsthand how it has been to cover people with preexisting conditions, young people up to age 26, to cover the uninsured. governor patrick, i am so thrilled to be able to welcome you inside the war room. >> thank you jennifer, thank you so much. >> it just makes me smile to have you here. >> it's great to hear your

voice. >> especially today when the nation is enthralled with whether the health care refer is going to be upheld or not tell people how it has worked out in massachusetts since it's been in operation now for a couple of years. >> it has been, the law went into effect, was signed by governor romney in his last year in office in 2006. it went into effect the day i took office, and it's wildly popular here. over 98% of our residents have health insurance today 99.8% of children. there are actually more businesses offering insurance to their employees today than before health care reform in massachusetts went into effect. that you don't have to worry anymore about being seriously ill and losing your insurance or going bankrupt. over 90% of the participants have access to their choice of

primary care physicians and you can actually get an appointment. four out of five in a recent survey have seen a primary care physician in a last year. it has added 1% to state spending, which was about projected at the time, so very affordable. >> how many people got covered how many more? >> i think it was a 30% increase in coverage. and of course -- so it saved us money in the long run. you emphasize wellness and preventative care rather than sick care at the back end. >> you are implementing or starting to implement some of the cost savings side of health care reform so not all of the benefits have been accrued yet right? >> that's right. some of the strategies for driving down health care costs accrue because of authority under the national health care

act. we're doing limited network plans, really to offer more choice in the marketplace for people to choose, to make difference options really to choose different options for their needs especially for small businesses and working families. >> i want to actually have you knock down a few of the fears that have been raised by those who oppose health care on the national level, and you know, i did a little research to find out how popular it was and the latest poll number i have is from february, 62% of your citizens are supporting it, which is pretty incredible. i couldn't find any date that about how the business community feels about the bill and nationally, of course, it's the national chamber of commerce leading the charming against the federal bill. how do your businesses in massachusetts like it? >> they've been terrific. the business community first of all was right at the table in the design of health care reform, they worked right

alongside a republican governor, democratic legislature, with ted kennedy, with labor. they have to their great credit stayed at the table to refine it as we've gone along. one of the big issues, jennifer, was the affordability for small businesses, which represent 85% of the businesses in the commonwealth and we've got new products and strategies to help their costs go down. premiums were increasing on average 17%, very much like the rest of the country that was true a couple of years ago it's less than 2% today. >> wow really? premiums are now increasing only by about 2%, when the rest of the country's going up at about 17%? >> that's right. that's right. >> wow that is an astonishing number. >> we've had the business -- >> yeah, the business community. >> we've had the business community at the table as we've

developed these strategies, we've had the providers and insureds at the table and it's taken some cajoling, a little bit of regulatory influence, a little bit of legislative flexibility, as well, but everybody is invested in the success of this because it's important to the health of the commonwealth and important to the health of business, as well, so a value statement. >> this is why it's so critical that people look at what's going on in the laboratories of democracy as we always say as governors, because we can demonstrate how the country can lead the way. if your insurance premiums are slowing that growth enormously, that's very significant. led me ask you to knock down a few of the rumors that are out there. one, are there death panels in massachusetts? >> no, there are not death panels. wide choice and people are happy with those choices. >> what about the claim that health care reform will kill jobs according to michele bachmann and others?

>> we've had one of the fastest rates of job creation here in the commonwealth, we were 47th 47th back in 2006. i think we're in the top 10 over the last couple of years fifth just at the end of last year. >> what about the claim that the health care reform will destroy my choice of doctor? >> also false. all of us have a wide range of doctors. there is a tremendous pressure on primary care physicians, a capacity issue. that's national, though, and i'm happy to say is a said earlier that over90% of our residents have access to a primary care physician today. >> all right now when mitt romney signed this health care legislation six years ago this is from the boston globe i'm going to quote them: >> romney gazed out at the

spectacle with delight and said this is a politician's dream you've got to admit that. it's a big part of the legacy i will have personally for my four years as governor, but i have no way of telling whether it will be a help or hindrance down the road. what is romney's legacy in massachusetts with respect to health care? >> he was a part of this brought coalition that i described earlier that finally saw that we had another than the usual two choices when it came to health care, between a perfect solution or no solution at all. i know he's proud of it. every governor has their portrait painted when they leave office. he came in one weekend and used the office that i now sit in to take pictures to get ready for his portrait and he had painted into that portrait a copy of the health care reform bill. he's proud of it, and he ought to be proud of it. it's done a lot of good for a

lot of people. >> you know, it's so ironic, deval, because we, as he was framing this in massachusetts and i served with him before you were elected and we were part of a health care committee and negotiation with the bush administration over what this health care reform would look like and he was totally proud of it. there were a lot of us like me saying to the department of health and human services can i have what romney got in massachusetts so that i could craft something similar and they looked at him at his plan as the plan that would be the model, and because he was going to give it to a bunch of other governors at that time. >> one of the features of that plan was an essentially republican idea which which was the individual mandate, the very thing that so many republicans are suing over right now and the whole theory is a private sector insurance theory, which is that you spread the risk as wide as possible in order to

keep system costs as low as possible, and that's the reason for the mandate. >> well, so you've been doing this now and of course any new system has problems. if you had to design it differently, what would you do differently? >> you know, i think that the sort of untold story about health care reform in massachusetts, which is the reason why it has been so successful goes back to the breadth of that coalition that came together in the first place and the fact that they stayed together to adjust it as we've gone along because it's impossible for a change this big to be over with just a stroke of a pen at the time of enactment so i think that, you know, you asked me what we'd do differently. i think the most important thing to retain, it's not a change i would make, but the most important thing to our success has been keeping all those folks at the table and reviewing it and modifying it and adjusting

it as we've gone along. >> it works in massachusetts but could it work in a state that's quite different from massachusetts, like say texas, the features? >> it's going to work. secretary levitt was actually here in this studio just a minute ago, right before we went on air, and i had a chance to talk with him, and it was he with whom i had negotiate we had to negotiate the renewal of the medicate waiver that enabled health care reform here in massachusetts and the secretary is proud of it as well. it's going to work because of the flexibility that's built into the afford automobile care act to adjust to differences in circumstances in different states. we had a comparatively small proportion of our population that were uninsured texas has a

smaller. the reimbursement rate for texas is very high at the federal level in the first several years to help them feather this in. that's one example of many, many flexibility built into the language of the statute itself. >> all right. that's governor deval patrick. thank you so much for joining us in the war room. up next, the survival of health insurance reform could come down to one vote, justice anthony kennedy. we'll hear from his clerk about what could be the deciding argument. we're back in a minute.

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room. the supreme court heard final arguments on whether president obama's health care reform law is constitutional. none of the justices is getting more scrutiny than anthony kennedy, that's because he is the court's swing vote. he often sides with the court's right wing but known to vote with liberal counterparts, as well and how he votes in this case will likely determine its outcome. what might be going on in the mind of justice kennedy as he deliberates? unfortunately he doesn't do too many interviews but we have his former law clerk here with us, clerk for justice kennedy in 1983 and 1984, now the court appointed receiver of the california health care systems. thank you for being here. >> my pleasure to be here. >> i want to start with a sound

byte today of justice kennedy's argument: >> all right, so in real persons language, what do you think went on in the court today, what's going on in his head? >> the technical language i go severability. if they decide to strike down the individual mandate, how much of the rest of the affordable care act can stay in place. that is the question today. >> what do you think he is doing with that line. >> what he is pointing out is if

they were just to strike down the individual mandate and leave the rest of the act in place it would actually impose upon the country a health care insurance system that congress never intended and that actually proposes some really serious challenges in the way it would work. >> a lot of the justice were grappling with this, because when you sever something what's left has to deal with the consequences of that hole. it seems to me from the argument that i read and listened to, that it's either all or nothing. >> i would agree with you that that seems to be whether most of the justice are, and this is a little different than in a normal case. in a normal case, the court really tries to preserve as much as it can. i think the court is struggling with the problem. they've got 2,000 pages of material here. they don't really know how things interact with each other so they're a little afraid if we carve something out --

>> what i was encouraged by is they're willing to look at the whole thing and look at the impact not just on the law but on the world on the country. that would be true if they struck the whole thing down, because so much has taken place in order to preserve this health care reformal. let's get inside the vote of the swing vote. is he persuadable in oral argument or does he come in with his mind already set? >> he comes in with a predisposition of how he thinks the case should be resolved, but justice kennedy is very open to being persuaded. i think we saw that a little bit yesterday. he started out with a lot of questions that suggested he was pretty skeptical. towards the end he actually restated the government's case in a pretty favorable way suggesting to me that he is still wrestling with the question however does the

commerce clause go. >> what happens now. what goes on inside that we don't see? >> there will be a vote that they'll take friday, and then assign who gets to do what opinions, and they -- my guess is they've already started writing various opinions. >> are they acrimonious at all? >> not really. appellate courts have to be places where there's a great deal of collegeality because they work together all year. it's not just one case. oftentimes, they simply would be exchanging draft opinions and draft consents among themselves. >> they're not face-to-face. >> oftentimes it's done by email. >> back in your day you actually walked from chamber to chamber. in our conversations before, they shake hands before every meeting. >> every week, it's a 200 year

tradition, but they individually shake each other hands every justice shakes the hand of every other justice. it's a cute little -- >> i love these traditions, the fact that the junior justice has to pour the coffee for everybody, now justice indicatingen is pouring everyone's coffee. >> there's no one else in the conference room. it's just the justices. >> are they watching what's going on outside, the protests, do they take that into account? i know they'll say they don't but really. >> you can't ignore it. i mean in many cases their office windows overlook the plaza, so of course they see it. frankly, i don't think it has that much of an impact, that type of immediate political consequence. i do think most of the justices are interested in the grand sweep of political history in the country, and that is important. >> for sure. >> i do think one of the things that makes the affordable care act, puts it at risk is that it is so unique.

it's not like we've been building up to it. >> on the other hand that might be in its favor too because it distinguishes it and they won't feel their making precedent for other laws. >> that's exactly right. >> thanks so much for your insight. we will be watching. >> coming up biden is back on the trail and mitting mitt where it hurts but first tensions over the trayvon martin case are boiling over in congress. >> how does it work? >>you put the fruit in, you turn it on, you wait for ten seconds, you take it out. it's a healthy apple to eat. >>that's big. if you sell as manny of those as we sold records, one day i'm going to be going to your house. >>got a cool idea of your own? enter it now at wouldntitbecoolif.com. four finalist will have the chance to pitch their idea to will.i.am.

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you get hives, vision changes or eye pain, or problems passing urine. other side effects include dry mouth and constipation. nothing can reverse copd. spiriva helps me breathe better. does breathing with copd weigh you down? ask your doctor if spiriva can help. >> outrage over the trayvon martin killing reached the house floor today in a sight not often seen in chambers. >> racial profiling has to stop,

mr. speaker. just because someone wears a hoodie does not make them a hoodlum. >> that's illinois democratic bobby rush donning a hoodie and greg harper, who was presiding over the chamber ordered rush escorted out for violating a house rule that prohibits wearing hats in chambers. afterwards, rush told reporters that decorum sometimes has to take a back seat to justice. joining us for analysis of how the martin case is becoming political is pollster david merman andar sure brazoni. thanks so much for coming in. there's been an awful lot obviously today, and even

tonight about this video regarding george zimmerman obviously, the stuff on the floor of congress, and the issue of race being so hot. i know david you've got some data on what the polls are telling us. >> it's an unfolding story. things are going to shift day to day on things like this. the most recent poll that i've seen shows very large majorities of the country feeling that first of all mr. zimmerman should have been arrested, 73% believe that. 76% believe on neighborhood watch, you shouldn't carry a gun. that's the initial judgment of the voters. the outrage is justified, it seems like it's a serious issue. having said that, you know, this isn't the issue has the obama administration or democrats particularly want voters to go thinking about. it's obviously a big deal. >> it is a big deal. arthur, from your perspective how do you think the conservative media has been

handling this? they dove in and there was an effort to try to smear trayvon a bit by bringing up some of his past history and then there was competing releases. >> i think all sides have made this a political issue. it's a tragedy. i think your previous guest is more my position, which is also the position, the two leading black journalists, which is the bigger issue is the incredible violence that occurs, half of all homicides are block youth or and also 93% are black on black violence. the dropout rate unemployment rate, all these issues are much larger than this emotional frenzy going on. i think if that leads to that kind of debate that's positive. if not, this is part of this turbo charged primary world where every issue explodes with

social media. >> i think that's right. obviously the was an issue being very critical. we are going to talk about it tomorrow on the show. stay tuned for that. we've been trying to make some heads or tails of the supreme court and health insurance. what are you seeing? >> the jury's still out on the supreme court of course, or the court is still out. and you know when a decision gets handed down, that will be an earthquake politically. it will make a big difference in all kinds of things regarding the election. what's interesting is that the critical part of the law that's most at issue here is the unpopular part, the mandate that people buy insurance be covered, which is part of how it works, it was a republican idea to begin with, as governor patrick pointed out.

>> politically which way? >> if they struck the unpopular part down and leave the rest, the rest is the popular part. it's a huge policy mess, but politically, the republicans try to repeal those popular provisions, they're going to be an interesting box if that has. i'm sure the administration would rather keep the whole law. >> it's a very interesting pickle romney is in given that his state is that this is the one that this was modeled after. >> as just discussed. >> there were interesting enforcements in the presidential race today. stick around, everybody. it's completely inappropriate

for television.

>> a poll shows president obama ahead of mitt romney in three key swing states in florida leading 49% to 42% and leading in ohio and pennsylvania. that's a total of 67 electoral votes. back to look at the numbers and other polls, welcome back, you guys. let's start with this. that's bad news for mitt romney, those swing state numbers. >> and those are the right states to be polling here. you win two of those three you're going to win.

>> the last time i was here, i remind you where the polls were, they change constantly. >> but romney got two pieces of good news. one, george h.w. bourbon doored him and the second tonight breaking news that marco rubio from florida also endorsed him. can you say vice presidential hopeful? >> that definitely looks like what he's aiming for. it's a good day for romney, good to get that endorsement. rubio is a very capable politician. he is not as popular with latinos nationwide. he is popular with latinos in florida and way out of step with latinos in the u.s. on immigration. it's a mixed bag. >> i don't think it's a surprise. even i would say that's not a surprise. when i think is interesting is the timing of it.

i watched the talk about santorum and gingrich and obviously they've run out of gas, showing themselves to be accepting reality. santorum's trying to set himself up for a vice president position. interesting time for rubio to come forward staking his ground. >> and newt gingrich cutting back his staff saying he's in it until the end. if he's charging 50 bucks a photo, he is hurting. romney's got his problems. today, the milwaukee wisconsin journal sentinel posted a story, what romney thought was a funny story. oh my god! wait, wait, wait, the story is that his dad moved jobs from michigan to wisconsin in shutting down a factory and this was supposed to be a humorous story. >> you've got to understand he's

a wealthy man so he's going to act a different way. >> do you even know what a car elevator is? >> there are wealthy people who can relate and connect with the rest of us and there are those who captain. >> i don't know about us, but the bottom line is that. >> closing a factory down! >> you get the delegates you win the votes and election. president ford had a problem of falling on every staircase he was on. joe biden has his own problem every time he opens his mouth. >> he has a relatable problem. let me ask you quickly a series of polls came out today showing the president's favorability and job approval numbers and then mitt romney's favorability, and there's a different, and i think it's important for people to realize, there's a different

between favorability and job approval. >> president obama's favorability has been trending higher than his job approval. his approval numbers are up, but he has an enormous gap over romney, two legitimate pollsters showing obama's favorability in the low to mid-50's, romney, 34 favorable one poll, almost a 20% gap. you can't win an election with that kind of a gap. if it were today he'd be in trouble. >> talking earlier about this, on the same day that you have this poll, rasmussen came out with a poll showing 51% disapproval of the president. the gallup poll, pretty much

even. we're going to be going through this. >> we are. we are. >> we should actually a. graph for all the times that we do this, because we're only in march. >> it's going to be a close race. there's going to be ups and downs. >> it's march! >> the more people see of romney, the worst. >> i disagree. >> thank you guys for coming. coming up, the complexities of a legal argument as seen through the eyes of a man child. erlich versus the supreme court is next p.m. i know this stuff and i love it and i try to bring that to the show.

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typically a place of high level discourse and debate but yesterday, everyone sounded like well a total moron. the solicitor general, the number two attorney in all of america took a giant number two all over himself. >> because it -- because -- the -- and -- and -- because this is a market in which -- in which -- >> what a disaster! i don't have video since they don't allow cameras inside the courtroom, but here's the closest thing to what i could find to what went on in there. >> just a ship with sophisticated navigation systems could run aground is unclear. >> wasn't totally his fault. the justices were celebrating teletuby tuesday. you try answering a question when sam alito is dressed like this. early on, the judges started comparing the health care industry to other industry and

what resulted were some inane analogies. here's a picture they painted of the health care industry funeral insurance, cell phones, cars and broccoli. that is definitely worth a thousand words. if the government can force you to buy health insurance can they also force you to buy all this? i sure hope so, because i just bought the website and already got one order, too who thinks it would look great in his elevator in his garage. i'm done talking now. >> thanks for joining us here in the war room. tomorrow, more on the trayvon martin case and a closer look at violence in the african-american community and in urban